Friday, 05 June 2009
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YOU'RE GAY....
How To Beat The Condemning Christian
Am I going round the bend? Have I given up solid Biblical scholarship for dodgy gay theology? Nah, the Bible says what it says. Gay theology is bad theology.
It's a theology which takes God's word out of context, and twists it to conform to the narrow agenda of a small group. It seems reasonable, but in practice denies the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. When the legalistic Christian takes the word of God out of context and uses it to slam the gates of heaven in the faces of LGBT persons, it is hateful not loving. No matter how passionate the declarations of love may be, the actions of these people abuses and misuse the beautiful, life giving, merciful, and powerful gospel message.
You thought I was going off on gay theology didn't you? The legalistic Christian is the greater offender. They know what God's word says, but because they find homosexuality so repugnant they only focus on the parts of God's word they can most easily use to condemn. The Pharisee dumps heavy burden's on people's backs, but they themselves will not lift a finger to help.
Am I speaking of all Christians? NO! ABSOLUTELY NOT!! Only those who continue to focus on a message of condemnation over the message of the cross. There are many godly Christians who hold to a Biblical view of homosexuality, that it's sin, but do not condemn others regardless.
Now, I'm not saying that because I or any other Christian believe what the Bible says, that you or anyone else has to believe it. HOWEVER...If you happen to be gay, and want to win an argument with a Christian about what the Bible says then you have do it right. Attempting to use gay theology to win an argument with a Christian is like cutting all your skin off and taking a swim in shark infested water.
I live in a town that has one of the most respected Evangelical Seminaries in the country. I can't count the number of poor gay people who've been chewed up and spit out while attempting to argue theology with it's students. I am the guy who killed the theology shark after the poor gay person was, metaphorically speaking, reduced to fish food.
All you have to know is what the Bible teaches.
Christian Argument 1: Leviticus 18:22,
22"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."
*They may also bring up the Sodom and Gomorrah gambit. With a few changes this approach will work on that too.*
Correct response: "Leviticus 18:22, huh?" "Is it safe for me to assume, since you're quoting this verse, that you think I'm a "sinner" rather than what you are: which is, "saved"? The Christian will undoubtedly answer in the affirmative. The Christian has just hung himself. If you want to supply the rope, and tie the knot around his neck then this is what you do.
Start by asking this question:
You: Leviticus is one of the books of the Pentateuch or The Law of Moses, right?
Christian: Yes.
You: According to the Bible, Moses received the Law directly from God, isn't that right?
Christian: yes, that's right!
You: But I've always wondered something, when God gave Moses the Law, where were Moses and God's people? Were they still in Egypt, on the way to the 'promised land', or were they already in the 'promised land?
Christian: *If the Christian knows Bible history, they'll be able to answer this one.* God gave Moses the Law after he lead God's people out of slavery in Egypt, on the way to the 'promised land'. *If the Christian doesn't know the answer, then you can supply it yourself.*
You: Okay, so let me get this straight, God waited to give the law to his people after they left slavery in Egypt, right? *This is of very great importance, you must get the Christian to acknowledge this point.*
Christian: Yes, that's true?
You: *The fun begins* In fact, when God gave his law to the Jews he had parted the Red Sea for them, so they could pass through on dry land. The Egyptians were pursuing the Jews to take them back into slavery. God caused the Red Sea's waters to close, and the Egyptian army were all drowned. That's the story right?
Christian: Yes!
You: In the Bible Egypt is used as a figure or representation of sin. Pharaoh is a human representation of the devil. And in the New Testament the Red Sea crossing represents Christian baptism.
Christian: Wow, I'm impressed!
You: Yeah, I'm just getting warmed up. So, if Egypt is a type for sin, Pharaoh is the devil, and the Red Sea crossing is baptism. God gave the Jews his law AFTER he saved them from Satan, sin, and then baptised them... What God does with Israel is paint a picture of what you Christians call being "saved". So God waited to give his law to his people after he "saved" them. Have I got it right so far?
Christian: Wow that is great.
You: Yeah, it's great...God is great, you on the other hand are a jerk and a hypocrite!! You quoted the Law to me, because you think I'm a "sinner", while you are "saved". God didn't give his laws to the Jews until after he'd saved them. The Law of Moses is for people God has "saved". You give me the law, but you are a Pharisee. You tie up heavy legal burdens and dump it on people like me, but you won't lift a finger to really help me. If you were like this God you claim, you would behave like him. You shove the Laws of God at me to condemn me, not to bring me to this God of yours. If you wanted me to have this salvation of yours, you wouldn't shove law on me.
Christian: *struck completely dumb* "um...er...uh...well...er..." *realization takes hold...*Christian thinks to himself* I. AM. SCREWED!
*To deliver the coup de grace you have to learn one verse of Scripture.
2 Corinthians 3:6, 6 He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life.
You: You are a Christian, and you know that the letter of the law kills. God only gives the letter of the law to those he's saved. You on the other hand give law because you want to condemn me to death. Even the Bible teaches that. 2 Corinthians 3:6. You are not loving like your God! You are a hateful bigot, and nothing like the God you claim!!! Tell you what, when you decide you want to act like this God you claim, we'll talk. Until you do act like your God get out of my face!
ANY QUESTIONS??
TO BE CONTINUED....
*Runs for the Star Trek type emergency transporter*
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Comments (31)
I am interested as to where you are taking this.
@Made2sing4Jesus - Read the next posts.
I do agree we can't present unbelievers w/ God's law/truth in the same way we do believers since unbelievers have no capacity to turn from sin and obey God's commands (apart from the Spirit coming to enlighten and empower them). (Anytime we speak truth we must do so w/ love: Jesus = grace + truth.)
What would you say about:
The work of the Spirit as described in John 16:8-9?
The teaching that the law shows us the sinfulness of our sin (Romans 7:7+)?
The teaching that the law was our schoolmaster to lead us to Christ/grace (Gal. 3:24)?
Peter's manner of preaching in Acts 2:22-23?
Thanks.
Grace & peace be with you,
Karen
@naphtali_deer - Absolutely, a balanced gospel message must deal with sin, but the way Christians have dealt with gay people doesn't include that. When I self-identified as gay, I had lots of dealings with Christians. All they ever gave me was law. That isn't the gospel message.
Jesus came preaching, "From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." Matt. 4:17
Also, you have to understand, with the exceptions of Gal. 3:24, all the verses you quote were first addressed to Jews. Jews had been trained in the law. With a Jew you would have to begin with the law. With a gentile you'd have to start some place else. "To the gentile I am as one not under the law. To the Jew I am as one who is under the law"...My paraphrase...
There is no grace in law, but without the law it is impossible to appreciate or understand grace. Grace without law becomes liberalism. Law without grace becomes legalism.
Very good comment...stay in the conversation!
@Lamb@revelife - yeah, you ain't seen nothing yet!! Stick around!
Sorry, but I think your a little confused. Galatians 3:23--25 says:
23 - But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 - Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 - But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
How can we be saved unless we know we are sinners? How do we know we are sinners? By the law.
This is great. Man, I wish all of my (very bigoted) extended family could (or would) read this... :)
@musterion99 - No not confused. Only God's people can live the law, by the power of the Holy Spirit. Only Jesus could keep the law perfectly. as you point out the Bible teaches: Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. The Jews had the Law, but because they didn't have faith, they were not educated, and did not come to Christ.
In Galatians Paul is speaking to Gentile believers, not Jewish believers. Paul explains God's intent, but the Jews rejected Jesus. Jesus tells the Jews that Abraham saw His day and believed, but the Jewish leaders rejected Christ. Abraham believed and was justified. Had the Jews of Jesus day believed as Abraham, the Law of Moses would have indeed been their "schoolmaster". But since the Jews of Jesus day did not, the Law caused Jesus to become a stumbling block to the Jews. They would not be educated by the law, that Jesus is "the way the truth and the life everlasting". When we are educated by the law, we fall to our knees knowing that we can not keep the Law.
When you give law where there is no Holy Spirit presence to convict, and all you give is law there is no "lesson" being taught. Giving the Law without connection to the gospel can only bring death.
@rachelserine - so email it, but I'm not sure it will work...Hey can't hurt to try can it??
@musterion99 - Let me explain a little bit further. Remember when Jesus is approached by the rich young man?
17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
18"Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"
20"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"
What the young man lacks is the schoolmaster. When the rich guy says, "All these I have kept," he means 'perfectly'. Jesus is standing in front of him and attempts to be the man's 'schoolmaster'. The guy fails the test....The rich guy is a representation of the Jews and the Law.
@Such_Were_You - lol! I am of the opinion that it never hurts to try. :)
@rachelserine - Go ahead, but you'd better be prepared for the fall out!
@Such_Were_You - Only God's people can live the law, by the power of the Holy Spirit.
No, we still cannot keep the law which is why we receive the imputed righteousness of Christ. Do we keep some of the law? Of course we do, but so do the unsaved. Not every unsaved person is a murderer or a thief. They are keeping that part of the law.
In Galatians Paul is speaking to Gentile believers, not Jewish believers.
The book of Galatians is applicable to all Christians. Those verses are just as applicable to Jewish Christians as they are to Gentile Christians. If you're going to exclude groups of people, that's a dangerous, slippery slope. That's like saying that when Jesus spoke John 3:16, that only applies to Jews. Both Jesus and John preached repentance as part of the gospel.
Had the Jews of Jesus day believed as Abraham, the Law of Moses would have indeed been their "schoolmaster".
There were Jews that believed. All of the first Christians were Jews.
Also, when God delivered the Jews out of Egypt, the wilderness was not representative of true salvation as Jude clearly tells us in verse 5:
"I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not."
It's clear that this was not symbolic of our salvation. These people not only didn't get to enter the Promised Land, but God judged them and killed them.
In saying all this, we are probably more in agreement than disagreement. I don't believe that we as Christians should judge unbelievers as Paul clearly says in I Cor. 5:12-13. I believe that most unbelievers already know that they are sinners and don't need to be told that they are. The problem is that they believe they can go to heaven by good works, in spite of having sin in their lives.
@musterion99 - The first point is mostly for another comment. But you are enabled to increasingly keep the law...If you could not then you'd go on stealing, committing adultery, murder and so on and so on. I would still be gay... were I not enabled to turn from it, and change by grace.
As far as Galatians, I'm not saying it's not applicable, I am saying that Paul's teaching is first geared to teach gentiles, who've never been under law, what the Law is. That all believers benefit isn't my point. I am not disagreeing. I am explaining that Paul is addressing gentiles and that's why he explains the law the way he does. That the Jews didn't accept the Law as Schoolmaster is evident in more than one encounter Jesus had with the religious Jews...I gave you one example, the rich young man....now that you are aware of the principle, when you read the gospels you'll begin to see how Jesus tried to be 'schoolmaster', but the religious Jews would not learn.
Yes the first believers were all Jews. For about the first 15 years after Christ they were all Jews. You are simply missing the point I'm trying to make. That's alright we'll keep talking. But know that I'm not arguing with you, we're just seeing different facets of the same diamond, which is what God's word is.
The point here is that Christians have been using the law to push, rather than instruct people so that they realize they need Jesus. When the law is intended to be the 'schoolmaster' it works, but when the intent is condemnation then the end is death.
@Such_Were_You - That the Jews didn't accept the Law as Schoolmaster is evident in more than one encounter Jesus had with the religious Jews..
And I told you that there were many Jews that followed Jesus while he was here on earth. Jesus was preaching repentance from sins which is using the law as schoolmaster.
The point here is that Christians
have been using the law to push, rather than instruct people so that
they realize they need Jesus. When the law is intended to be
the 'schoolmaster' it works, but when the intent is condemnation then
the end is death.
Yes, we agree.
@Such_Were_You - You wrote: Jesus came preaching, "From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." Matt. 4:17
So, what does an unbeliever have to repent of if they don't hear the law?
Why is Jesus having that conversation w/ the rich young ruler. Shouldn't He instead be saying: "I love you. I have a wonderful plan for your life. I know you're not going to hear this yet, so I won't tell you where you're falling short." No, He doesn't do that. Instead Jesus throws the book at him and he's unable to respond. Just b/c someone is not a believer, we don't give them the law (+ grace). I think we would have to agree that Jesus knew how to preach the Gospel and He knew how to deal w/ unbelievers. There was no fault in Jesus or the message. This man was unable to hear. The hearer alone is at fault. The message is good. It's God's message. And here we see God Himself giving it and men reject it. The Spirit moves where He wills. We give the message in the hope God will grant repentance and open eyes to see and ears to hear. Some will receive it and believe on Christ; others will reject it and go away sad.
When you give law where there is no Holy Spirit presence to convict, and all you give is law there is no "lesson" being taught. Giving the Law without connection to the gospel can only bring death.
We need to give the Law with connection to the Gospel. But we cannot guarantee the Holy Spirit presence will be there to convict. Our words may go out with power but they also must be received with power. Two people can hear the same message and one will respond to the Gospel and the other will reject that. The message is the same, the message is good, the difference is the Spirit has not opened the hear to receive the message. The Spirit moves where He wills; by definition we don't know when He might show up. But if we don't say anything, then we're guaranteeing there will be no "lesson" taught for sure.
Also, you have to understand, with the exceptions of Gal. 3:24, all the verses you quote were first addressed to Jews.
Aren't Galatians & Romans are written to predominately Gentile audiences?
Would eventually like to hear your thoughts on the John passage...
Christ's grace & peace.
@musterion99 - I really appreciated your comments here.
One thing: I do believe that the picture of the Passover is symbolic of justification in this way: God delivered them from the death angel and Egypt b/c they believed and put the blood on the doorposts and lintels. The analogy stops there b/c they were judged and killed as you said. We can certainly agree that the Passover Lamb and the blood point to Jesus whose blood delivers us from death and bondage to sin. So that's a definite picture.
But then I would venture to say (and know there are different ways of looking at this) that the Israelites' failure to enter the promised land is a deficiency in their sanctification. That's what the author to the Hebrews is writing about in Hebrews 3. The Hebrew Christians are already in the race, but they're in danger of failing like the Israelites did (the Israelites longed to go back not to Egypt; the Hebrew Christians were tempted to go back to the law & the sacrificial system). The Israelites were judged & killed in the wilderness, and I would say the parallel to that is our being saved so as by fire. And we also have to keep in mind that even Moses himself did not get to go into the promised land, yet He is regarded as one the great cloud of witnesses of faith and He does appear w/ Jesus at the transfiguration. I'm wondering how you would explain Moses.
Again, thank you for the thoughts you've shared here.
Grace & peace in Christ.
@naphtali_deer - Actually Romans was written to predominantly Jewish converts. At the time of the writing of Romans none of the Apostles had visited Rome...How did Christianity get to Roman. Many Scholars believe the Jews who started the Roman church were from among the men who heard Peter preach at Pentecost. A careful reading of Romans 2 gives strong evidence that Romans is addressed to Jews. The church at Galatia was founded by Paul.
Jesus came preaching, "From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." Matt. 4:17.
My use of Matt 4:17 was merely to show that Jesus confronted sin. However if you will look at the context of Matt 4:17 you will see that John the Baptist preached "repent for the kingdom of God is near." Jesus begins where John finished his ministry. Jesus started preaching to the people who'd heard John. So the people knew exactly what Jesus was talking about. He wasn't preaching law, but rather the kingdom of God.
My point is merely to say that I'm not saying teaching a "sinless" gospel. Rather a gospel where sin is has it's place, but is not the point of the gospel.
As far as what you say about the rich young ruler, you actually make my point. The religious Jews and their leaders would not be instructed by the Law. Had they allowed the Law to be their 'schoolmaster' they would have believed in Jesus. Gal. 3:24. But they rejected the 'master'. The law did indeed fail because the Jews couldn't receive it...no one can...that's the point.
Does not God inhabit His word? When God sends forth His word, does it return to Him void. Preach the gospel without condemning and the Holy Spirit will be there. Preach condemnation and the Holy Spirit will not. How could the Holy Spirit be in condemnation? The Holy Spirit is called the "Spirit of Life" Romans 8:2. "The letter of the Law kills, but the Spirit gives life." If all you're giving is the letter then the Holy Spirit will not be in it. To say that the HS can be in the letter of the Law contradicts Scripture. This post is not about a true gospel message....Please refer to my second paragraph.
"It's a theology which takes God's word out of context, and twists it to conform to the narrow agenda of a small group. It seems reasonable, but in practice denies the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. When the legalistic Christian takes the word of God out of context and uses it to slam the gates of heaven in the faces of LGBT persons, it is hateful not loving."
You and I are not at cross purposes here. We agree, we just need a bit more clarification.
Lonnie
@musterion99 - You say: And I told you that there were many Jews that followed Jesus while he was here on earth. Jesus was preaching repentance from sins which is using the law as schoolmaster.
If you'll read my response directly above what you comment, you'll see this:
"Yes the first believers were all Jews. For about the first 15 years after Christ they were all Jews. You are simply missing the point I'm trying to make. That's alright we'll keep talking. But know that I'm not arguing with you, we're just seeing different facets of the same diamond, which is what God's word is."
You have to read my complete response, or you'll keep making points which aren't points any longer. Let's keep the conversation moving so others may follow. If we keep going over and over the same ground we'll never get anywhere.
@Such_Were_You - Actually Romans was written to predominantly Jewish converts.
Duh! Yes, now looking at it, it seems obvious! I don't know what I was thinking.
You and I are not at cross purposes here. We agree, we just need a bit more clarification.
Lonnie, Your last comment was very helpful in clarifying, plus this previous one:
The point here is that Christians have been using the law to push, rather than instruct people so that they realize they need Jesus. When the law is intended to be the 'schoolmaster' it works, but when the intent is condemnation then the end is death.
Yes, I agree!
You wrote previously:
With a Jew you would have to begin with the law. With a gentile you'd have to start some place else.
Question: So where would you start?
I'll be back tomorrow (well, later today...) Good night! (Though I guess you'll be awake yet for several hours.
)
~Karen
@naphtali_deer - I really appreciated your comments here.
Thank you. I appreciate your comments also.
We can certainly agree that the Passover
Lamb and the blood point to Jesus whose blood delivers us from death
and bondage to sin. So that's a definite picture.
Yes, no doubt.
But then I would venture to say (and know
there are different ways of looking at this) that the Israelites'
failure to enter the promised land is a deficiency in their
sanctification.
I'm not sure exactly what you're implying by that. Jude 5 is clear why they didn't enter, Because they believed not, and then God killed them. If it was just a matter of sanctification, I don't think God would have killed them. Jesus used the same term that is used in Jude. In John 6:64, Jesus said - "But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him." This can't be speaking of deficiency in their sanctification. In Hebrews 3:11, God says of those people - "So I sware in my wrath, they shall not enter into my rest." (also verses 16-19). God's rest is indicative of salvation and heaven.
I don't know why Moses didn't make it to the Promised Land but his death was not comparable to those that God killed. They were killed because they believed not. We know that Moses believed and God didn't kill him in judgment.
God bless.
@Such_Were_You - You have to read my complete response, or you'll keep making points which aren't points any longer.
It was in response to this comment. "That the Jews didn't accept the Law as Schoolmaster is evident in more than one encounter Jesus had with the religious Jews.."
[Let's keep the conversation moving so
others may follow. If we keep going over and over the same ground
we'll never get anywhere.]
No problem.
I love reading posts like these. It has both sides of the issue, making it MUCH easier to see how things line up.
I also have to say that I've appreciated the labeling of "Gay Theology." I'm not usually too appreciative of that sort of thing, but in the months that I've been following your blog and discovering that this issue really, truly does have a militant faction, I think it's essential.
Keep the jet fuel flowing and the after-burners on. I know it keeps singing the subtle whispers that want me to compromise scripture on this issue.
@musterion99 - I will agree to disagree w/ you on that b/c I'm really just not sure, esp. since they were definitely judged as you say. That is clear. But the fact they were also delivered from the death angel means there was a definite deliverance for them, so that's where I'm getting hung up.
About Moses:
And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, Because you did not believe in me, to uphold me as holy in the eyes of the people of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land that I have given them. Numbers 20:12.
Anyhow...
Christ's grace & peace be with you,
Karen